What makes a Church a Church?

Posted by kailex 8 Jul 2010 at 11:51

•What can be stripped or changed or altered before a church isn't a church?

In my experience - if a church tries to change too much - it either ends up splitting (if non-conformist) - or losing most of its congregation to elsewhere (if Anglican).

I am not sure this is wrong - though the process often really hurts many people which is undeniably wrong.

Posted by mark 8 Jul 2010 at 12:02

It's is indeed an interesting question, which, unfortunately, I'm unlikely to have much time to engage within over the next week or two.

Historically, Christianity has reinvented itself numerous times. There have been far more diverse variations of Christianity than of Islam or Judaism.

One missiologist talks about Christianity being the captive and the transformer of culture. In other words, Christianity doesn't impose a particular political system, social system or even philosophical system. It has always adapted to the situation within which it finds itself, whether it's as a misunderstood sect within the Roman empire, an ideology fighting for credibility in Greece, the religion of kings in medieval Europe, protestants reacting to the enlightenment, puritans reacting to institutionalised religion, liberals and evangelicals reacting to the rise of science, charismatics reacting to too much rationalism from evangelicals...

In each case, it's not hard to see how the way the church has turned out has been shaped in part by its society. But in most cases it's also not hard to see how the church has played a part in shaping that society.

I think that the huge and urgent question today is whether church is currently relevant to anything that matters to anyone outside the church. Is it time for the church to reinvent itself again? But maybe that's another tangent...

Posted by Steven 8 Jul 2010 at 12:26

To answer the second question in the OP, the kernal is Community.

The Church is a community is a community in relation with each other, and with God, both individually and communally. It's commission is to go and make not converts, but to go beyond that and make disciples.

The core message is that the God/man, Jesus Christ, died for this sins of the world, and through that death men and women can be reconciled to God.

As mark said, the Church has reinvented itself over the millenia, and as it has changed the way the message has been preached has changed. Yet this core message has remaind constant.

Posted by Vee 8 Jul 2010 at 12:27

"That's just the way we do it" is not a valid reason not to change, IF there is a good reason to change. Change, for change's sake is not a good reason to change.
If I change the wording to "don't fix what's not broken", I hope that makes my position clearer. There are many cases where necessary change has been resisted, and I wouldn't want to encourage that however.

Yes, I think it can be good enough to say try the Church down the road.
If I turned up to my nearest church to discover that I cannot accept the infalibility of the Pope; or the next nearest and found I dislike the assumption that God will always answer prayer with a yes; or the one next nearest again and I wanted services more often than once a month, I'd hope that one of them might suggest I go elsewhere, hopefully a little more specific than that. (Can you tell I live in the centre of a city yet?). How about if I only spoke a little english, but a lot more Urdu: my church holds Urdu services and Malayalam Sunday school, people are referred from all over the city for those. They come from all over the county and beyond to the Polish services in the RC church across the road. We all have different needs, if one church tries to do it all, it is doomed to failure. God gives us different gifts, let us use the ones we have and not pretend to have ones we don't. Oops, that turned into a bit of a rant. Please forgive me.

I'd like to think diversity in Christianity is a strength, but I'm not entirely sure. However I do think it is inevitable, so I'm trying to accept it as something that cannot be changed

Posted by Vee 8 Jul 2010 at 12:41

I'm not sure what makes a church, a church, even less so what the kernel is, because it seems so different to different people.

Duty of care is an interesting one. My instinct is to say your duty of care is to those whom you offer it, but I know that is a hangover from my profession. In the Good Samaritan we are taught that our duty of care is to those we see in need, and we should put ourselves out for others, but counter to that we are also told not to cast our pearls before swine and to shake the dust off my sandals if we are rejected, so I interpret the combination of those as If I can help I should offer what assistance I can, at whatever price to myself; but if my offer is rejected, leave things be. If I cannot help then I should not waste my resources. Oh God, please give me the wisdom to know what you want and when.

Posted by mark 8 Jul 2010 at 14:13

Kailex: "I am not sure this is wrong - though the process often really hurts many people which is undeniably wrong."

For the Pharisees, the religion approved by God was about Jerusalem, the Temple and the sacrificial system. This was a system that God had blessed! Yet Jesus says it's all going to end. This clearly hurt the pharisees. Part of their motivation for opposing Jesus is that he is threatening everything they know of how God blesses them. But Jesus did it anyway.

Posted by pearla 8 Jul 2010 at 15:44

I agree with what Vee says :) and appreciate the diversity of God's church. To me church is both buildings and people. I go to church to worship God, to praise Him and thank Him for all the good things in my life (yes I know we can do that anywhere) but it's good to do it together with others. I also ask HIm for help for others and myself. I love singing (not that I'm a great singer) but the Methodists are known for loving song! :)....It's also good to meet and catch up with other folk who have busy lives during the week.
It saddens me that so many (Methodist) churches have closed in Cumbria thats why I'm in favour of renovating ours which is in an excellent position on the main street. Our current minister has a vision and we are hoping that the vision will be caught by all of the congregation, even those who initially said they wouldn't be here that long so weren't interested!!
It could become in the future a lovely warm (imagine, a warm church lol) comfortable, welcoming place and used by many different groups in the community. Yet still have signs or icons of a 'religious' mode. i.e. a cross! banners perhaps...with scriptures so that whoever enters the building will know that Jesus is still Lord!

The duty of care should be toward it's congregation, those who have faithfully attended week, after month, after year come what may and those who are housebound, the vulnerable, the elderly and to the community. Our main purpose is not social work for me, it's telling of Jesus and His amazing love and sacrifice for us. The work is the outpouring of that love as we come to know what He has done for us imo!!

Posted by Petunia 8 Jul 2010 at 22:32

Steven said "The core message is that the God/man, Jesus Christ, died for this sins of the world, and through that death men and women can be reconciled to God."

Jesus was crucified because of the sins of the world - not 'for' the sins of the world. God Himself may be sought and found, asked and received from. That which is received is the fulfilling of His promise, seen in Jesus. Our Father - God - raises up His son by His works of transforming love and life. Any church which denies the teachings of Jesus, replacing the true way with a way of false religious doctrine does not bring man to God.

Pearla wrote "it's telling of Jesus and His amazing love and sacrifice for us" - the sacrifice Jesus made - each person must make - "whosoever" loves God must "take up their cross and follow" - cross over from death to life. As He did - you must lay down the old way of life the old man lived and take up the new life received from God.

Posted by kailex 9 Jul 2010 at 00:34

OP, "What responsibility do churches have to welcome everyone?"

I visited a Causway Prospects church a couple of times with my LD daughter, www.prospects.org.uk/index.php/causeway_prospects/,
I have never been anywhere so genuinely welcoming :-)

But they also have to make it clear I am NOT welcome to join the church - it's a place where those attending have a service they can access physically, mentally and spiritually - and particpate in fully - from readings, prayers etc. to activities that could not take place in an ordinary church whilst still meeting the needs of non LD members (though I do think some could be more inclusive...).

So welcome everyone - but also be aware no church can meet everyone's needs so redirect when necessary - or expand . . . .

Posted by Jen 9 Jul 2010 at 09:51

OP question : Is it good enough to say there's a church down the road might suit you better?

In my experience churches don't tend to "say" that. People tend to take themselves off to other churches if they don't feel comfortable. I have a suspicion that churches are not always aware that this happens. I have not once been asked why I do not attend Sunday Worship at the church I am currently a member of and I know of at least one other member who it has only recently been discovered worships elsewhere.

OP question: Is it a strength and not a weakness that we have so much diversity in Christianity?

I think some of us discovered when we looked at the " Mission shaped Church" that not one shape fits all. Diversity has to be a good thing. Co-operation between denominations is the key to a united church.

Posted by pearla 9 Jul 2010 at 16:42

Well well Kailex....brought back memories indeed :) I used to work for them in Reading and knew Madeline (and David) Potter , knew Madeline's dad better....thanks for the memories. Your link didn't work for me but this one does (I hope!) www.prospects.org.uk/index.php/operational_prospects/1
I did attend some of their church meetngs and different events, it was great, we started every day with prayer! Great! And I've never had so many hugs in my life lol. Great to hear it's gone from strength to strength, they did have some problems in the '90s about employing only Christian staff but bank workers weren't included if I remember correctly. Excellent news!

Posted by kailex 9 Jul 2010 at 17:45

Thanks for the new link, Pearla - the one I gave worked yesterday!

Jen - yes, I think if a church doesn't suit for any reason people do start shopping around.
But, specifically for a new person one might meet on a Sunday, do we tell them in fact their needs would be better met at a church nearby (maybe more youth, more/less traditional etc)?
Or do we hope they will swell the numbers in our church?

If we always direct to the most "suitable" church - we are creating churches that meet specific needs, but does that matter?

As I have said above - deaf people can fully participate is a church where all is signed - and more multi-media is used, some LD people can more fully participate in a Prospects church, and there are many other examples.

If we could start looking on all the churches as God's one church - and not think some denominations and churches "better" than others - more people may be encouraged to find a church that meets their needs at that time.

Posted by truthpaste 9 Jul 2010 at 19:30

Kailex > "If we could start looking on all the churches as God's one church - and not think some denominations and churches better...."

Agreed, but until you get the denominations granting priority to Bible teaching for all, how will we ever see the influence of the Holy Spirit in His correct position as teacher and director of the church.

Posted by kailex 12 Jul 2010 at 18:11

So the holy spirit is limited?

Can't he teach whenever the bible is read in a church?

I am interested in your last sentence, TP, does it say in the bible that the HS is the director of the church? (genuine question btw !) Or is that just implied?

Posted by Jacqui 12 Jul 2010 at 18:20

the Holy Spirit in HIS correct position...interesting....

Posted by pearla 12 Jul 2010 at 19:32

Sorry Jacqui but I think you're being a little pernickity here! I would have said 'Him' too probably! (Well in preference to 'it') :)

Posted by Jeff 12 Jul 2010 at 20:12

OK, it's a bit of a tangent - but Spirit is masculine in Latin, feminine in Aramaic and neuter in Greek.

Posted by pearla 12 Jul 2010 at 22:02

And in Hebrew Jeff? :)

Posted by Jeff 12 Jul 2010 at 22:10

All the Semitic languages are feminine - that's Hebrew, Aramaic and Syriac.

Posted by pearla 12 Jul 2010 at 22:52

So really we can say God the Holy Spirit is either feminine or masculine? I prefer Ruach HaKodesh but then thats neuteral, oh dear I can't think of God as neuteral!
However not really off on a tangent because if the Ruach HaKodesh (Holy Spirit or wind) of God is not present in a church, is the church alive?

Posted by Jacqui 13 Jul 2010 at 08:54

I would say the Holy Spirit is all encompassing not gender specific or neutral. I would also say that we need to be aware of how we use language as it can disadvantage and disempower others greatly. We only have the words we have but we can be aware of how we use them I think. I dont think its pernickety to be aware.

Posted by Steven 13 Jul 2010 at 11:27

HOSTING

The tangent on the gender of the Holy Spirit stops here.

Posted by truthpaste 13 Jul 2010 at 11:42

Kailex,

There is no statement that the Holy Spirit directs the church, but we see Him actively doing just that from Acts to Revelation. Acts 13:2 would be one such occasion.

Posted by Jacqui 13 Jul 2010 at 11:58

Is the Holy Spirit then, God in action in people? Its a genuine question, not being funny. People make up the church and it seems that interpretation of what God calls us to do through the Holy Spirit actually results in a lot of the differences between churches. Is it our discernment that lets us down?

Posted by Steven 13 Jul 2010 at 12:29

Paradoxically I see the Holy Spirit being behind both unity and diversity in the church.
Through the Holy Spirit the church is one in fellowship despite its differences.

It only takes a little bit of reading between the lines to find a lack of uniformity in the early church. Corinth was not organised the same as Epesus which was not organised the same way as the church in Jerusalem; and each had their own problems.

Things are the same in the 21st century. As a local church moves in the power of the Holy Spirit it will become more distinctive. I see a lot of new initiatives in worship, fellowship and outreach being Spirit led.

Is God really calling you to be the same as everyone else?